Well here it is.
Some of you may have read a version of this post in the old forum or may have even attended a Zins/Moody Clinic and heard this in person.
So ya understand what it is to aim with iron sights, or so I guess, as I have not had any questions in regard to the Aiming with Iron Sights post. Then again maybe there are only a few people reading my posts. Spread the word guys, free stuff here. I know we all like free stuff. LOL
So what seems to be the difference between aiming with irons and dots that shooters can either make a smooth transition or they cannot? Excluding the obvious that as we get older our vision may or may not allow us to switch to a dot or back and forth from irons to a dot.
So with a dot, I was taught to look at the dot as if it were the front sight of irons. As a young Lance Corporal on the Marine Corps Pistol Summer Team in 1990 I was approached by then Gunny Moody who said try this. "Next time you shoot slow fire, turn your dot down and instead of looking at the dot try looking at the target." Being a young Marine and not one to question a Gunny, I did it. I shot my first 100 slow fire at 50 yards with my .22. Part of the Team training was to share information with the rest of the team. The OIC (Officer in Charge) Capt. Belkes aid, " Zins here shot his first 100 slow fire, tell everyone what was different and how you did it."
Oh boy! He didn’t like the answer when I told him I turned the dot down and looked at the target instead of the dot. As matter of fact his response was, “what the hell gives you the right to look at the target just becasue we put a $100 sight on your gun?!?!?” My answer was “The Gunny told me to do it sir.”
This was the beginning of a new thought process for the Team when it came to shooting dots. I know that we were taught to look at the front sight, I teach it, but the dot is a different creature all together. It is in essence a one point aiming device. Where as irons you have 2, a front sight and a rear sight. I know, "what about the target?" I am dealing strictly with the aiming process of the gun not the in relationship to the target at this point. So, we can aim the gun and then we can aim the gun "at" something. Does that make any sense at all? The difference between sight alignment and sight picture.
So it was pointed out in the iron sight post that a big problem is wanting to look at the target all the time. Well now you can and shoot well while looking a the target! It is only natural for us to wanna look at the target, after all that is why we struggle with iron sights. One of the first things as kids we were taught is how to throw something, well that and ” Don’t eat that!” When we were taught to throw a ball we were told to keep our eye on where we were throwing the ball. Shooting is merely a method of throwing an object, albeit faster than Nolan Ryan ever could have imagined, at a target.
I know it sounds easy right? Just go grab your guns and gear and head to the range and look at the target and shoot. Keep in mind like looking at the iron sight, we have to make sure that the focus stays on the target or on the dot. You have to pick one. If you have a hard time seeing the target at 50 yards look at the dot and stick to it. If you can see the target clearly at 50 yards give it try, but like I said you have to keep the focus on the target. The big problem with this is still the same, too often shots are breaking as the shooters eye is going back and forth from the target ot the dot and the shot breaks while the vision is in transition between 20 inches away, the dot, and 50 yards away, the target. That’s a big area to be looking at and yet focused on nothing at all.
Remember the article on trigger control? Well that once again comes back into play here. Trigger control needs to be started before the dot to target relationship reaches that perfect sight picture. If you have obtained perfect sight picture and there is no pressureon the trigger as soon as you start that pressure to the rear THE GUN IS GOING TO MOVE! So when the gun is presented to the target and the dot is in a place NEAR your AIMING AREA that is acceptable for you, continue the pressure to the rear. I say continue because there is already some pressure on the trigger already from when we established our proper grip. Right? As the pressure on the trigger builds the dot will begin to stabilize and move less until ultimately the shot breaks at the precise moment that perfect sight picture has been obtained. If only it were really that easy. It will take time. I wish I could find a pharmacist to make a pill to make it happen as esy as it sounds. But you will get there.
Questions?
Does the dot need to be in the center of the tube? Yes and no. Really depends on the sight and if there is any parallax. If there is you need to stay in the middle. It is aesthetically pleasing to the human to see circles in circles so it easier to accept the dot in the middle of the tube than not.
Aren’t the dot and the target on the same “plain?” I really don’t know the answer to that. I have heard it and truly don’t understand the statement cause I cannot see the dot and the target clearly at the same time. Maybe it’s just me. I’m not really smart enough to shoot bad, so I just may not be able to grasp the concept.
BenEnglish describes frustration with the dot shape. He has an astigmatism. Me too.
Over the course of a shooting session my dot changes from a sideways L to a clump, to a line – very frustrating.
Solution – take a target paster and punch a hole in the center. Put that on your glasses and look at the dot. You will see a pin-point dot. You can use an aperture for $60 or a paster for a penny.
1 of 1:
OK, I’ve read this posting many times. I’ve tried focus on the dot, I’ve tried focus on the target, and unfortunately I’ve even had strings of focus on nothing. When I’m shooting the .45 in timed or rapid, and I focus on the target, I find myself losing focus on the target to hunt for the dot. Do you simply stay focused on the target, and wait for the dot to come back into view? Or ??
Thanks for all the information on the site.
G
I too recently switched my guns from Burris 2X scopes to red dots (ultra dot LT). There were two reasons for me to do this…
1) 2X shows my shake and sway more severely
2) seeing the black dot on black target was very hard now (50 years old)
What I would like to know is how much sway or shake a really good shooter sees. On a good day, my shake is about 1/2 the size of the black and my sway carries me out of the black by about 2 dot sizes. On a bad day, my shake easily exceeds the black and the sway in my arm takes me out about 5 – 8 dot sizes.
While I understand there will always be some shake or sway, perhaps both, but how much does a master shooter see when preparing to take the shot?
Chris
That is indeed odd. Interested to hear what the eye check up reveals. Keep me posted.
Thanks. I appreciate the feedback. It’s past time for a checkup with the eye doctor. I think I’ll drag along this sight and have a chat with her about it. She was pretty understanding the first time I went to see her and showed up with a couple of pistols so I don’t think she’ll have a problem with looking over the Ultradot.
I’ll leave you with one oddity. When I tested the dot, I shot groups about as small as I can shoot with irons. Each shot was a *lot* more work but the bullet holes were all just as close to each other as I’m accustomed to. Definitely weird.
Thanks again.
I have read this post a few times now for a couple of days and I have to say that you may very well be someone that cannot use a dot sight. I have met other people that have had a hard time seeing a clear dot but perhaps there is more to it with you. I would suggest visiting an eye Dr. to check that out.
I was very happy to read “…I cannot see the dot and the target clearly at the same time.” I’m in the same boat.
At 50, I’ve just gotten my first red dot, an Ultradot. I put it on an old Hammerli and went to an indoor range. Boy, was I disappointed.
The dot, itself, looks like a clump or 3 or so dots, surrounded by a starburst. If I turn down the power, the starburst effect is reduced but doesn’t go away. The dot in the center never ceases to be anything but a misshapen clump.
OK, so I figure that as long as the clump is repeatable, I can use it. During the actual shooting, however, it’s a real pain. If I focus on the dot, the target is difficult to find since the tube of the sight obscures much of it. I can, with some difficulty, see the black through the sight tube. It’s discolored by a green tint and the dot/starburst combination pretty much obscures the center so that I can’t tell where I’m pointed, but by moving the dot off the center and back on, I can loose a few rounds based simply on faith that I’m pointed in the right place.
Alternatively, I can focus on the target. That’s a complete non-starter. Line up the dot while looking at the dot, then switch focus to the target and, instantly, the dot disappears. I don’t mean it gets too fuzzy to use or I’m having some trouble seeing it. I mean it’s *gone*. There’s a mild red glow somewhere between me and the target but there’s nothing that can be used for aiming.
Many years ago I borrowed a red dot (a Bushnell HoloSight, iirc) and had exactly the same experience. My eyes have been checked several times since and they’re OK, considering my age, nearsightedness, and the onset of presbyopia.
I’ve googled quite a bit and read a number of articles about red dots and I don’t find anyone who describes the sort of negative experience I’ve had. I’m not a competitive shooter in any discipline that allows red dots for stand-up pistol shooting, so this is mostly just me trying to do a better job with my pistols.
So I’m posting here asking for some insight. Are red dots simply unusable for some people? Or am I doing something wrong?
Well if you are talking about small bore as in .22 pistol I would have to say Aimpont Micro. If you are talking about small bore as in small bore rifle, I am not really the person to ask.
Brian, what type of dot/reticle and manufacturer do you recommend is good for small bore bullseye shooting?
Sorry for the delay getting back to you. I was a bit busy shooting. LOL
The focus for me is on the target when using a dot. If you are having an issue with losing the dot after each shot then you probably have a grip problem more than anything else. If you havea correct grip the dot will always return to your line of sight everytime the gun recoils and you will ne anle to keep that “so called” rhythm you have with irons. I dont like the term rhythm cause it come with the connotation that one is trying to keep rhythm with the sound of the shot by pulling the trigger thus forcing the shot to break.
Where is the point of focus as the shot breaks and through the recoil process with red dot scopes? With iron sights, I follow the front sight up through the recoil and back down while starting the trigger pull once the front sight begins to come back on target. The dot presents another problem because it disappears from sight during the recoil. With iron sights, the mind aligns the front sight a million times faster than the finger can begin to pull the trigger. You establish a rhythm with iron sights. The dot seems like you concentrate on the dot up to and through the shot and then you have to start looking for the dot again in order to start the shot. There seems to be a void in the shot. It upsets the timing of the shot. One of the things I have tried, is to use the rear and front rings created by the design of the Ultradot Matchdot tube as a quick sighting plane to put the target back in the center of the scope tube and then shift focus to the dot in order to start the firing sequence. How do you break down the red dot sequence once the shot breaks?
William,
I really don’t agree that the dot and the target can both be in “focus” at the same time. No difference than the front sight and target not beng able to be in focus at the same time. If you are truly looking at the dot the target will get blurry. I believe that many dot shooters are NOT truly seeing their dot like they think they are. I have asked shooters to describe what their dot looks like and most cannot. What happens then is their visual focus is really somewhere out in the middle of that open space between the end of the gun and the target.
Visual focus and mental focus are 2 different things. As far as mental focus goes, I am mentally focusing on the trigger moving to the rear.
Brian,
I’m not an optition, but I was a fire control technician. I believe the dot and target are in the same focal plain. That is what makes dots so nice for us old timers. The eye only has to focus to one point and the target and dot are there. Much better than iron sights where the target, front sight, and rear sight can never all be in focus at the same time. That is the optical part of the equation.
The other part is mental focus. Even though your eye can be focused on the dot and target at the same time, your mental focus can not be on both. You have to pick one. I think I focus on the dot. I’ll have to try the target.
Brian,
Unless you have specific data recording the number of views of your posts, I suspect more people, likel me, are reading them (often repeatedly) without leaving comments. It’s kind of like commenting on the Bible: some of us don’t feel qualified enough to respond.
Please keep them coming.
True. I do allow the gun to settle from the top into the target, but that is not what I consider to be the final settling of the dot. I am advocate of lowering the gun intothe center of the target, but not from way over the top, just at the the top of the target. By lowering the gun into the black it allows the arm to actually setttle. I have seen those who raise the gun directly to the middle and I have tried it. It feels as though different muscle are being used to hold the gun inplace than if I allow it to settle into the black.
I bet a lot of guys misinterpret the “final settle”, regardless of irons or dot use, as a whole arm movement down from above the target. I don’t think it is that. The subconscious should be channeled not on the arm and shoulder, but more out at the gun. At least this is a description that sets well in my mind.